Technical Talk

longarmedgibbon
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by longarmedgibbon » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:06 pm

Power boat and pilot experiance a big advantage but personally i think the main attributes are intelligence, level headedness and courage! Those attributes with pilot and power boat experiance then thats the man or men for the job so ted and stu are the right ones. Ian lazenby

longarmedgibbon
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Technical Talk

Post by longarmedgibbon » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:20 pm

I read in donalds book ‘into the water barrier’ that when he applied power bluebird pulled to one side due to the gyroscopic forces of the engine spinning. Does any one know of Ted or Stu experienced this ??. Ian lazenby

User avatar
Canopener Al
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by Canopener Al » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 pm

longarmedgibbon wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:06 pm
Power boat and pilot experiance a big advantage but personally i think the main attributes are intelligence, level headedness and courage! Those attributes with pilot and power boat experiance then thats the man or men for the job so ted and stu are the right ones. Ian lazenby
The most important is discipline in any venture of this sort. Lack of discipline? Example was making a second run 4 minutes after the end of the first. This whole project stems at the end of the day from that lack of discipline, for whatever reason it was made (I get such thoughts with HMRC letters too). I am not having a go at the memory of anyone BTW, it is just an example.

User avatar
sheppane
Posts: 508
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:03 am
Location: Chiswick, West London and Penrith, Cumbria.

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by sheppane » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:53 pm

Canopener Al wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 pm
longarmedgibbon wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:06 pm
Power boat and pilot experiance a big advantage but personally i think the main attributes are intelligence, level headedness and courage! Those attributes with pilot and power boat experiance then thats the man or men for the job so ted and stu are the right ones. Ian lazenby
The most important is discipline in any venture of this sort. Lack of discipline? Example was making a second run 4 minutes after the end of the first. This whole project stems at the end of the day from that lack of discipline, for whatever reason it was made (I get such thoughts with HMRC letters too). I am not having a go at the memory of anyone BTW, it is just an example.
Can I suggest that DC knew exactly what he was doing. Read my book if you want to understand that returning straight away had no bearing on the cause of the accident.
'When you go down into the arena, you know that sometimes, you're likely to get your nose punched. You do it with your eyes open. You take the risks'

Donald Campbell, Bluebird and The Final Record Attempt. https://www.facebook.com/bluebirdk7/

User avatar
Canopener Al
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by Canopener Al » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:54 pm

sheppane wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:53 pm
Canopener Al wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 pm
longarmedgibbon wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:06 pm
Power boat and pilot experiance a big advantage but personally i think the main attributes are intelligence, level headedness and courage! Those attributes with pilot and power boat experiance then thats the man or men for the job so ted and stu are the right ones. Ian lazenby
The most important is discipline in any venture of this sort. Lack of discipline? Example was making a second run 4 minutes after the end of the first. This whole project stems at the end of the day from that lack of discipline, for whatever reason it was made (I get such thoughts with HMRC letters too). I am not having a go at the memory of anyone BTW, it is just an example.
Can I suggest that DC knew exactly what he was doing. Read my book if you want to understand that returning straight away had no bearing on the cause of the accident.
Really.. Are you an aerodynamist or did DMC tell why he returned into his own wash? The film of the the return run is clear, the boat was unstable and if the thrust line did change with the fuel running out and Bill has always said K7 has downthrust, it would have had the effect of the raising of the bow and 300+ MPH airflow aerodynamics taking over. On that stop he was supposed to make, he should have refuelled. Leo Villa wrote in his first book on the subject that the calculations for K7 were always for flat calm conditions. I take his word for it. Licenced Aircraft Engineer is my profession by the way and aerodynamics is one subject I had to take for the ticket.

User avatar
Canopener Al
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by Canopener Al » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:28 pm

Centre of Pressure getting too far forward of Centre of Gravity is not usually a good thing for Aircraft or Hydroplanes or Land Speed Record Cars. Actually it is pretty bad if you cannot control it by other means.

User avatar
Engine 711
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:37 pm

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by Engine 711 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:17 am

For those who may not know, the Quick Return (without refueling) had been tried & tested, several times, by DMC in K7 - in its final form - before 4Jan67. That being over the Christmas/New Years holidays, when he took K7 out, with just a few people to help him.

I have read Neils book - I have just been re-reading part of it, to better understand the operation and characteristics of the Water Brake. I have no problem with the analysis of the events of 4th Jan67, as presented there. I do not believe the Quick Return was an error or mistake, by DMC. While there were some effects from Run 1, he got through those OK, near the start. After that the water was good.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

IM

User avatar
sheppane
Posts: 508
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:03 am
Location: Chiswick, West London and Penrith, Cumbria.

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by sheppane » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:57 am

Canopener Al wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:54 pm
sheppane wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:53 pm
Canopener Al wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:20 pm


The most important is discipline in any venture of this sort. Lack of discipline? Example was making a second run 4 minutes after the end of the first. This whole project stems at the end of the day from that lack of discipline, for whatever reason it was made (I get such thoughts with HMRC letters too). I am not having a go at the memory of anyone BTW, it is just an example.
Can I suggest that DC knew exactly what he was doing. Read my book if you want to understand that returning straight away had no bearing on the cause of the accident.
Really.. Are you an aerodynamist or did DMC tell why he returned into his own wash? The film of the the return run is clear, the boat was unstable and if the thrust line did change with the fuel running out and Bill has always said K7 has downthrust, it would have had the effect of the raising of the bow and 300+ MPH airflow aerodynamics taking over. On that stop he was supposed to make, he should have refuelled. Leo Villa wrote in his first book on the subject that the calculations for K7 were always for flat calm conditions. I take his word for it. Licenced Aircraft Engineer is my profession by the way and aerodynamics is one subject I had to take for the ticket.
Two things Mr 'Canopener'.

Why are some people so aggressive on Discusion Forum's? There is absolutely no need to be rude, and my reply certainly did not give you cause to be so.

The second thing is this.

Keith Mitchell and I (Neil Sheppard) did literally hundreds of hours of analysis with the full co-operation of Prof John Stollery (Consultant aero dynamicist retained by the Norris bros and DC) from Imperial College and latterly Cranfield and Mr AE James (managing director of Norris Bros and project manager for the 1966 rebuild). Tony carried out the post crash analysis in 1967. The conclusions we came to are on a basis of that work and are fully endorsed by Mr James and the late Prof Stollery. I suggest again that you take time to read our analysis before repeating the conclusion that Campbell hit his own wash when Bluebird left the water. Its a little bit more complicated than that.
'When you go down into the arena, you know that sometimes, you're likely to get your nose punched. You do it with your eyes open. You take the risks'

Donald Campbell, Bluebird and The Final Record Attempt. https://www.facebook.com/bluebirdk7/

User avatar
Engine 711
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:37 pm

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by Engine 711 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:27 pm

sheppane wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:57 am
Two things Mr 'Canopener'.

Why are some people so aggressive on Discusion Forum's? There is absolutely no need to be rude, and my reply certainly did not give you cause to be so.

The second thing is this.

Keith Mitchell and I (Neil Sheppard) did literally hundreds of hours of analysis with the full co-operation of Prof John Stollery (Consultant aero dynamicist retained by the Norris bros and DC) from Imperial College and latterly Cranfield and Mr AE James (managing director of Norris Bros and project manager for the 1966 rebuild). Tony carried out the post crash analysis in 1967. The conclusions we came to are on a basis of that work and are fully endorsed by Mr James and the late Prof Stollery. I suggest again that you take time to read our analysis before repeating the conclusion that Campbell hit his own wash when Bluebird left the water. Its a little bit more complicated than that.
Well said @sheppane - on both counts.

First thing - Because they can. Simple.

Second thing - I find the analysis & arguments presented in Ch10 of your book, quite convincing - as a professional engineer (*). Its a lot easier to simplify what happened - he hit a log, he hit a wave, he hit his own wake - all been offered over the years. But - to 'do the math(s)' - and show K7 was (always) potentially unstable at higher speeds - is more tricky and perhaps difficult for people to understand and to accept.

Similar 3 pointer racing hydroplanes to this day, quite often flip - much as K7 did. And probably for basically the same reasons - going too fast for the craft and/or conditions, on the day. On another day, could be fine - but today, they flip. On previous days, K7 has been fine - but not on 4Jan67 - not really on either run, tbh.

Run One was fast, very fast (297mph average, confirmed by timing) - K7 was 'floating' but DMC got her through. On Run Two was he trying for just a bit more speed - to push his average over 300 - probably. Did he have an Engine Flame Out at just the wrong time - yes - and then lost the very useful downward force on the bows, due to Engine Thrust - yes. What else could he have then done...? Probably nothing.

Its a lot easier to say he hit his own wake - or a log - or was foolhardy.

(* - Gas Turbines - Marine & Aero - for over 35 years)

IM

rich1608
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:38 pm
Location: Tunbridge Wells

Re: Triumph to Tragic in one fell swoop.

Post by rich1608 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:01 pm

Engine 711 wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:27 pm
Did he have an Engine Flame Out at just the wrong time - yes - and then lost the very useful downward force on the bows, due to Engine Thrust - yes. What else could he have then done...? Probably nothing.
Could that and previous flameouts have been caused by a missing clamp screw in the battery connection panel? See under 'Rebuilding K7’s Wiring Loom and Electrical Systems – Part 1' in the Diary http://www.bluebirdproject.com/index.php?id=63

Post Reply