Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Renegadenemo » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:44 am

Said it before, but I still think that possibly too much is being read into DMC's words "lighting up" or "relighting"
Can't argue with that either and his words are all we have to go on, but he did shout about relighting so he was observing or doing something... The question therefore remains as to whether he used any of his precious gas. If he didn't then he probably had enough to restart the hot engine, if he touched the button chances are he was locked into returning without shutting down.
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ted.walsh
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by ted.walsh » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:52 pm

OK,
possible in the realms of being in the wrong thread here but hey ho....
I'm agreeing with Bill he on the thought processes of the driver, having being stranded post blowup at the end of the record run course just south of Piel Island I can confirm that if Mr C thought for one second he may not be able to relight there is no way he would of considered it. trust me when i say that being towed back to the cottage from there would easily of taken over 2 hours and he would of been chuffin freezin by the end of it, Brrr

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Renegadenemo » Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:07 am

Having brought the original start system back to life we've been able to see exactly what it can do but we don't have a start turbine of the original type so this, theoretically at least, leaves us with an unknown. However, we do have a copy of the notes from the tests carried out at Haywards Heath in 66 giving gas consumption in psi, engine rpm and duration of the start cycle and we are pretty much able to replicate these results with what we have equipment-wise, so we're in the ballpark.
What we don't have is January temperatures and the resultant thick hyd' oil in the lines, nor do we know from the 66 test data whether the hyd' system was even connected so therein lies another unknown.
What we can say with a fair degree of certainty is that the system would have been able to provide one good start and another marginal one. The system holds 3200psi and it'll easily consume 1500 getting the engine up to start speed and with the last 700-ish being largely useless that doesn't leave a lot to play with.
The same system later evolved into the rapid-start system on the V-bombers with which it shared many parts (luckily for us) but in that instance the expanding air at about -145C was blasted into a combustor that burned jetfuel with it and exhausted gas at +900C to feed the start turbine so it was a far more effective system.
If Donald so much as touched the start button when he was shouting about relighting he would have known with absolute certainty that shutting down the engine after that meant a very long tow home and the end of his efforts for the day.
I can't imagine that we'll ever know for certain but I'd put money on that being what happened...
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by f1steveuk » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:32 pm

Plus of course DC had successfully practiced the "quick turnaround" system more than a couple of times ;)
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by sheppane » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:16 pm

f1steveuk wrote:Plus of course DC had successfully practiced the "quick turnaround" system more than a couple of times ;)
Steve's bang on about that.
Last edited by sheppane on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'When you go down into the arena, you know that sometimes, you're likely to get your nose punched. You do it with your eyes open. You take the risks'

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sheppane
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by sheppane » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:18 pm

f1steveuk wrote:Plus of course DC had successfully practiced the "quick turnaround" system more than a couple of times ;)
Steve's bang on about that. DC employed quick turnaround in all his timed runs of December 66 (10th, 12th, 13th and 14th) and the two un-timed Christmas Day and Dec 27th runs. I would wager, although we can never know for sure, that DC was always coming back immediately on the 4th. (From his perspective of water condition certainty, it was the best methodology).

The key is in being comfortable in the run up on run 2, but the really high speed middle 3 km (one km either side of and the measured km) being as good as they were on the way down. Campbell calculated and had actual proof that this would be the case. He would run into water brake chop early on the return at relatively low speed, and would be below 250 mph by the time he met his wash from the first run 1km plus north of the measured kilo. We also calculated that in slowing down at the end of the second run, DC would in all likelihood have needed to run to the head of the lake, overshooting Pier Cottage.

One interesting thing I have discussed with Bill, the Orpheus cut out on both runs on the 4th after approx. 31 seconds of sustained max throttle. (using Campbell's commentary from run 1 and photographic evidence from run, 2, which incidentally, commenced 3mins 18 seconds from Campbell starting run 1)

Bill is hoping to be in the position to retest the fuel system to see if this failure replicates itself in due course. It could point to an intermittent electrical failure or a fuel flow issue to the booster pump.
'When you go down into the arena, you know that sometimes, you're likely to get your nose punched. You do it with your eyes open. You take the risks'

Donald Campbell, Bluebird and The Final Record Attempt. http://www.bluebirdk7.com

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Mike Bull
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Mike Bull » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:35 pm

Not forgetting that DC also mentions the low pressure fuel light being on at one point...shame that the associated gauge was mounted on the side of the boat where he couldn't see it.

We know the boat had a static test once the header tank and extra pump had been added into the system, but how long was the engine tested at full bore? Because if both final runs saw the boat going thirsty at the same point, you'd have to think that at full beans the fuel system was sucking itself dry quicker than it could supply itself, so to speak.

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Renegadenemo » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:40 am

One interesting thing I have discussed with Bill, the Orpheus cut out on both runs on the 4th after approx. 31 seconds of sustained max throttle. (using Campbell's commentary from run 1 and photographic evidence from run, 2, which incidentally, commenced 3mins 18 seconds from Campbell starting run 1)
Yes - that is top of the list of must-have data. I's just too much of a coincidence and the mechanical state of the fuel system shouts of a deficiency in the fuel delivery. Not sure how we'll set that experiment up, especially as we have no way of knowing what had been done to the pump stroke in 66 because the mis-match between tacho-gen and indicator was missed but there has to be a way to check it out. Will give it some thought.
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Voltaire's apology when he wrote a long letter: "I didn't have time to make it shorter."

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ted.walsh
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by ted.walsh » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:00 pm

if you are driving the run the most important thing is to have good entry speed, ideally you should 'know' you have good speed and not just expect it to be there with your foot down hard. blowing out of the back of the run at N+x mph wont get you any records regardless of Vmax and typically is both dangerous and expensive in terms of mechanicals, rescue and recovery time. For the return run, especially in the case of Donald, the south run coupled with his turnaround course would have had a lot of say on his return run kilo entry speed. typically if you mess up the turn round it gives you far too much wash to navigate across at what is usually a pretty hairy point in how a boat is behaving, this massively affects your entry speed. ive attached one of the course tracks from one of my own runs that has been overlayed into Google earth but I don't suppose the 67' team had such a luxury :roll:
coniston-run3.jpg


course positions approximate....
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Renegadenemo » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:49 pm

That's a helluva long way down the lake - I'd never thought of just how long the tow would be if it all packed up at the south end. Apart from going down there to clear out the south end with a new sidescan sonar we've only really been to where K7 crashed, oh, and where Gordon Park dumped his missus. I'd certainly not want to tow something as cumbersome as K7 all the way back from there so it's either quick turnaround or no stoppy the engine...
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes

Voltaire's apology when he wrote a long letter: "I didn't have time to make it shorter."

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