Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Renegadenemo »

260mph and all the shoes out.
A small bit of nit-picking in the interests of technical accuracy - the 'shoes' are the surfaces that cover the forward, sloping face of the underside of the sponson only and they end at a small step where they meet the 'float wedges' on which the boat actually runs.
Shoes.jpg
It's easy to see why they were nicknamed shoes and they are described as such on the drawings.
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rob565uk
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Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by rob565uk »

Neil and Bill

Thanks for the informative responses. I have looked at that picture of K7 before but never put that particular interpretation on it - fascinating and thought-provoking.

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sheppane
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by sheppane »

Mike Bull wrote:
Renegadenemo wrote:
260mph and all the shoes out.
A small bit of nit-picking in the interests of technical accuracy - the 'shoes' are the surfaces that cover the forward, sloping face of the underside of the sponson only and they end at a small step where they meet the 'float wedges' on which the boat actually runs.

It's easy to see why they were nicknamed shoes and they are described as such on the drawings.
Yes it's a small point, but it does help if everyone understands which part of K7 is which...shoes are yellow, wedges are blue...
00.jpg
Guys,

Good point, well made. My bad.

Hopefully the point is made, that with the Orpheus, K7 was much less of a know quantity, and with different circumstances in the very early autumn, the team could have got on top of some of the issues that developed. One point I missed is that the greater power of the Orpheus was meant to get K7 to 300mph quicker and therefore the elapsed time in the 'zone > 290mph would be less than with the pretty much maxed out Beryl. It also meant Coniston was still just about suitable as a venue - K7's acceleration tailed off significantly north of 280mph with the Beryl.
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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

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Hopefully the point is made, that with the Orpheus, K7 was much less of a known quantity
I think we can all agree on that one and hopefully we'll come to understand more about the Orph' installation once we get it working again. One possibility for which we may be able to provide reasonable supporting evidence is that Donald didn't stop to refuel at the end of the first run because he didn't have enough gas in the start system to get the engine running again if he had. He'd already carried out a cold start then a relight at the end of the run. From what we've observed when working the system back up he almost certainly wouldn't have had enough gas to guarantee another start and he'd have known as much and would therefore never have dared stop and take the chance.
Neil, in the course of your detailed research you've studied the first run frame by frame, second by second, is it possible to say how long the relight took and give us a plus or minus on your estimate? That would be very useful.
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mtskull
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

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Renegadenemo wrote:One possibility for which we may be able to provide reasonable supporting evidence is that Donald didn't stop to refuel at the end of the first run because he didn't have enough gas in the start system to get the engine running again if he had. He'd already carried out a cold start then a relight at the end of the run. From what we've observed when working the system back up he almost certainly wouldn't have had enough gas to guarantee another start and he'd have known as much and would therefore never have dared stop and take the chance.
Said it before, but I still think that possibly too much is being read into DMC's words "lighting up" or "relighting", at the end of the first run. Rather than imply that he had initiated a full start sequence, IMHO it be more likely that he was simply reporting what he was observing, i.e. reducing rpm & egt, which would have been restored as the igniters did their job and the fuel system caught up with the reduced demand. In the event of the engine running down beyond the point at which a relight could be achieved, it would have surely been more logical to allow the craft to stop, refuel as planned, take a breath and then restart. To look at it another way, there wouldn't have been any point in wasting compressed air on a restart at the end of the first run unless it had already been decided to commence the return run without refuelling.
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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by Renegadenemo »

Said it before, but I still think that possibly too much is being read into DMC's words "lighting up" or "relighting"
Can't argue with that either and his words are all we have to go on, but he did shout about relighting so he was observing or doing something... The question therefore remains as to whether he used any of his precious gas. If he didn't then he probably had enough to restart the hot engine, if he touched the button chances are he was locked into returning without shutting down.
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ted.walsh
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by ted.walsh »

OK,
possible in the realms of being in the wrong thread here but hey ho....
I'm agreeing with Bill he on the thought processes of the driver, having being stranded post blowup at the end of the record run course just south of Piel Island I can confirm that if Mr C thought for one second he may not be able to relight there is no way he would of considered it. trust me when i say that being towed back to the cottage from there would easily of taken over 2 hours and he would of been chuffin freezin by the end of it, Brrr
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Renegadenemo
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

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Having brought the original start system back to life we've been able to see exactly what it can do but we don't have a start turbine of the original type so this, theoretically at least, leaves us with an unknown. However, we do have a copy of the notes from the tests carried out at Haywards Heath in 66 giving gas consumption in psi, engine rpm and duration of the start cycle and we are pretty much able to replicate these results with what we have equipment-wise, so we're in the ballpark.
What we don't have is January temperatures and the resultant thick hyd' oil in the lines, nor do we know from the 66 test data whether the hyd' system was even connected so therein lies another unknown.
What we can say with a fair degree of certainty is that the system would have been able to provide one good start and another marginal one. The system holds 3200psi and it'll easily consume 1500 getting the engine up to start speed and with the last 700-ish being largely useless that doesn't leave a lot to play with.
The same system later evolved into the rapid-start system on the V-bombers with which it shared many parts (luckily for us) but in that instance the expanding air at about -145C was blasted into a combustor that burned jetfuel with it and exhausted gas at +900C to feed the start turbine so it was a far more effective system.
If Donald so much as touched the start button when he was shouting about relighting he would have known with absolute certainty that shutting down the engine after that meant a very long tow home and the end of his efforts for the day.
I can't imagine that we'll ever know for certain but I'd put money on that being what happened...
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f1steveuk
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

Post by f1steveuk »

Plus of course DC had successfully practiced the "quick turnaround" system more than a couple of times ;)
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sheppane
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Re: Bluebird Archive Photos & Films

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f1steveuk wrote:Plus of course DC had successfully practiced the "quick turnaround" system more than a couple of times ;)
Steve's bang on about that.
Last edited by sheppane on Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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