Blue Bird K4

Post Reply
User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 4829
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by Renegadenemo » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:28 am

you could always attempt a 2 seat BBO replica. we could all go for a ride then? ;)
Or we could make a new Miss England II thingamabob with a couple of spare seats and you could blast people up and down Windermere.

Except you probably couldn't and we'd have to do that in the land of common sense too...
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

I have wrought my simple plan
If I give one hour of joy
To the boy who’s half a man,
Or the man who’s half a boy.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

User avatar
ted.walsh
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:25 am

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by ted.walsh » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:00 am

ummmmm, t'would be nice to have a couple of griffs at full chat behind ones ear :mrgreen:

Ernie Lazenby
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:19 pm

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by Ernie Lazenby » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:03 pm

Renegadenemo wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:28 am
you could always attempt a 2 seat BBO replica. we could all go for a ride then? ;)
Or we could make a new Miss England II thingamabob with a couple of spare seats and you could blast people up and down Windermere.

Except you probably couldn't and we'd have to do that in the land of common sense too...

Miss England 11 had seating for three across the boat forward of the twin engines. Get one built and you have the crew, Ted drives it with Bill and Richie as the mechanics needed to run it.

Techteam
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:15 pm

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by Techteam » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:21 pm

Would of thought you could use your museum types death ray and get them to give up Miss Britain 111. More your sort of materials, is a Napier more available ?? Now a nicely restored and running Miss Britain 111 would surely be worth it to them for a few demo runs a year.

JfromJAGs
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:16 pm

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by JfromJAGs » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:46 pm

Back to K4: basically the boat looks like a roundnose hydroplane - if the motor and thus the CoG would be a lot more forward. So was K4 already a prop rider (surface piercing prop) or was it still a conventional speed boat with a submerged prop? Due to the motor position and no rooster seen in the video footage, I would think the latter.

Comparing K3 or K4 with K7, to me K3 and K4 were rather conventional boat designs of their time, while K7 was something radically new. As far as I know K7 had the first outrigger sponsons and was ahead of its time by 50 years. Around 2005 the first outrigged sponson style hydro boats started to compete in Top Fuel Hydro drag races. US hydroplanes are still fullbody boats (might be required by rules though).

I'm wondering if the Norris brothers had contacts to the tethered model boat community. As far as I can trace it, they were the first to introduce streamlined bodies and outrigged sponsons - back in 1949/50.

Ernie Lazenby
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:19 pm

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by Ernie Lazenby » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:32 pm

K4 was a three point hydroplane. Originally it planed with the bottom of the transom on the water(as designed). It was not a prop rider as such. Donald converted it to a prop rider after he had the jet engine removed.(his fathers experiment) Piston engine was refitted but moved forward. I think the boat looked at its best in its very original form.

John Cobbs Crusader was a three point hydroplane with outrigger sponsons but at the back, a revolutionary boat much ahead of its time. This boat pre dated K7's design and may have influenced the Norris brothers. Its interesting that the boat that still holds the WWSR does not have outrigger sponsons nor does the latest design by Ken Warby and his team.

BTW prop riding was not invented it was discovered by accident. An engineer could not work out why the engine in a race boat was overheating despite water cooling. He looked over the side and noticed that the prop was trying to get out of the water thus lifting the water pick up clear of the water. He also noticed the engine speed increased. I think the boat was called Hurricane. (age is affecting my memory I am afraid)

JfromJAGs
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:16 pm

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by JfromJAGs » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:20 pm

Crusader is what's known today as a Canard. Whenever people tried to run such designs they got either injured or killed, eg Miss Circus Circus or Taylor's Discovery II. Its the instable version of a triangle.

With limited resources and trying to build a boat mainly from wood a design like Taylors Hustler or the Warby boats are the best option. These boats are flying in ground effect, lifted by compressed air underneeth the flat hull, the small sponsons are supposed to fly at speed. As long as these boats fly parallel they do that pretty stable. How long are these boats? 8-10m? Scaling these boats down to 1/10th scale they would need to do about 100mph. Which I consider a challenge.

Model outriggers (forwarded sponsons) in that size (or usually a bit streched for even more stability) reach about twice that speed. Not sure how to build such boats in real size though. You won't do that in your backyard.

Anyway, to me such outrigger designs, like K7, are the way to go.

f1steveuk
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:01 pm
Location: Belves France and Brighton UK

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by f1steveuk » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:50 pm

I'd refute canard or reverse three pointers are "bad" design or unstable. Ones without dead rise do have problems though, but there are many that have been successful, even going around corners!!

Ted Jones DID invent prop riding, he approached Sayres with the idea before he had built a boat to test it, the idea was as he said "in my head". And bare in mind, Ted Jones was not a boat designer or builder, although his idea was to have the CoG quite far forward to get the stern up and out, supported by an air cushion, but as luck would have it, the prop hub did the job.

Miss England II. I pilot, Segrave, and two mechanics, Wilcox and Halliwell, one for each Rolls-Royce R type. After Segrave's deaath, as Ernie says, refurbished for Donn to use and destroyed when the storage warehouse was hit by an incendary bomb, so NOTHING left. The science museum has a propeller, but only because it was a spare. The Windemere Steamboat museum has Segrave's wicker seat from his accident, and the steering wheel is in a private chapel in Italy in all it's bent up glory. Though Bugattis have been "restored" from a wheel nut found in a pond before now!

I'm signed to secrecy on Crusader and it's successor but I can answer the point regarding materials and how the Vulcan was flown for the first time when Crusader was built, yet I stated it was ahead of the materials and construction techniques of the time. It was 1950, post war Britain. Vospers had to get a construction license to build Crusader. Materials were still short and there was only so much that could be made available. The Vampire was built in a similar way to Crusader (or vice aversa) with wood and alloys. The Vulcan was a goverment project, so an all ali airframe wasn't going to be a problem really was it!!

I have letters where requests for some special materials for Crusader, and some construction help is turned down by the Ministry of Supply, so I stand by my remark, as it's researched and has documentation to prove it, Vulcan or not!

Finally, did you know that once the first model tests of K7 were proved successful, the idea was to move the forward sponsons to the stern and the rear shoe to the bow? Wasn't done because of the lack of money. Again, I have this is someones own handwriting, someone involved in both Crusader and K7.
Steve Holter, UK and France, and sometimes reality....................

Ernie Lazenby
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:19 pm

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by Ernie Lazenby » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:20 pm

Surface drives, part of the prop out of the water, were first tried by Albert Hickman on his sea sleds in 1916 -1919. Used on a boat called Rainbow in 1924. The roostertail is evident in photos of rainbow in 1924.
'Prop riding' boats really became evident in 1948 with Miss Canada 1V then Slo Mo then Bluebird K4. It can reasonably be argued that it all goes back to Albert Hickman but what do I know.

User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 4829
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Blue Bird K4

Post by Renegadenemo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:33 am

Fascinating stuff, guys. Keep it coming. This is all new to me, I enjoy learning this stuff these days.


Steve - can you also record that I was first to want to build a new Crusader. Not my fault the good folks of the BBP thought I was off my pot, again! :lol: :lol:
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

I have wrought my simple plan
If I give one hour of joy
To the boy who’s half a man,
Or the man who’s half a boy.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Post Reply