Warby's Spirit of Australia II

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Mike Bull
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Mike Bull » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:09 am

Engine 711 wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:18 am
I do not think an Air Starter is likely to kill you, if used correctly. If you REALLY think that, perhaps you should go Electric ASAP.
The starter on it's own is quite a benign thing, really. The bottles of gas required to power it are something else however and are simply inherently more dangerous than the electric system- which was my point.

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Engine 711
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Engine 711 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:49 am

Mike Bull wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:09 am
Engine 711 wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:18 am
I do not think an Air Starter is likely to kill you, if used correctly. If you REALLY think that, perhaps you should go Electric ASAP.
The starter on it's own is quite a benign thing, really. The bottles of gas required to power it are something else however and are simply inherently more dangerous than the electric system- which was my point.
Actually, for me - the exact reverse is true. As a Diver, bottles of 'gas' (at up to 300 bar), are not scary at all - given usual care & maintenance.

An Air Starter though - running at maybe 100,000 rpm (turbine speed) is potentially scary - but I have actually worked with many GT's using them, often in relatively close proximity. I have also seen what happens when they are run with too little oil, or are run too hard, without cool down - often both - and despite being a right mess internally, nothing came out - all the debris was contained - as designed.

You might conclude I quite like Air Start systems. But - DO check the Oil in the little Motor regularly - not too much, not too little.... ;)

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Mike Bull
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Mike Bull » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:00 am

Exactly what I'm already doing this morning, as it happens.

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Engine 711
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Engine 711 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:18 am

Mike Bull wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:00 am
Exactly what I'm already doing this morning, as it happens.
If the Orph starter is anything like the Tyne unit (which it could be - similiar 'size' of engine), I seem to recall the only certain way to check the oil was the drain the Starter & refill it....? ( one operator broke a lot of Tyne Starters, by not doing this.....)

Do whatever the Orph operating instructions say..... ;)

Blowtorch
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Blowtorch » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:14 pm

The starter/generator that we use is a simple fit and forget 28volt aircraft unit. No oil to fill ,easy as your car starter.We use 36volts (3 x 12 volt car batteries ).The unit fits right behind the bullet nose piece on the engine and tops up the batteries within minutes of the engine starting up.
No air bottles to refill, no air compressors needed. Just fill the fuel tank, hit the starter button and go play. Life is good.
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Renegadenemo
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Renegadenemo » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Has to be said, though, air start is much more exciting.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

I have wrought my simple plan
If I give one hour of joy
To the boy who’s half a man,
Or the man who’s half a boy.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

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Engine 711
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Engine 711 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:29 pm

@Blowtorch - Neat...!
Just a bit smaller than the Trent 1000 units (which are 250kVa each - 2 per engine)..... :shock:
But the same basic idea....

@Renegadenemo - Yup.... :D

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Renegadenemo » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:42 am

If the Orph starter is anything like the Tyne unit (which it could be - similiar 'size' of engine)
Tyne is quite a lot bigger than an Orph' About the same as a Derwent, I'd guess. We have a couple of Derwent starters and with a lot of careful packaging we reckon we'd squeeze one onto the nose of an Orph' in an emergency. Another Lucas-Rotax unit but half as big again.
The Orph' 101 starter (Lucas-Rotax CT1009) is a low pressure unit but K7's Orph' was a 701 that used the HP starter with gas requirements matched to the on board start system. We obtained a HP starter from a museum engine but the 101 gearbox is totally different to the 701 setup so no way would the HP starter (150psi delivery) adapt to our engine. What we did do, however, was look at how it used HP air compared to the LP delivery (35psi) from a start cart as it hit the start turbine. What we discovered was that the HP setup used a set of precision nozzles to direct air onto the turbine vanes (and creates an ear-splitting shriek in the process). That was easy enough to replicate but it's a smaller turbine and a different gear ratio so, though we drastically reduced gas consumption with our hybrid starter, we haven't yet worked out whether it has the capacity to give us one good start from the on board system, which is now restricted to a 2000psi working pressure. It's just another job to be bottomed once we get back from Bute. Would be great to get there with a totally self-contained start system but it wouldn't be safe so that's that.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

I have wrought my simple plan
If I give one hour of joy
To the boy who’s half a man,
Or the man who’s half a boy.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

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Engine 711
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Re: Warby's Spirit of Australia II

Post by Engine 711 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 am

The Tyne is a bit bigger than an Orph - but its twin spool, so the Starter only needs to spin the HP system over. The Starter connects via an external HP driven Accessory Gearbox (so its under the engine), and looks a bit different to the 'direct' style Orph starter, mounted in the Nose Bullet. The Tyne Air Starter I know (for the Marine Tyne - and made by Lucas/Rotax) was intended to run at 250psi inlet, but was actually run off a 350 psi supply (cos that was the nearest the RN had available). So guess that makes it an 'HP' starter.

'LP' starters are used on all the big fan engines (211, Trent, etc) and run on about 40 to 45 psi inlet pressure - lots of it....!

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