Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post Reply
User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 5104
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Renegadenemo »

You can only assume that Ruskin are now worried that they don’t have the capabilities to even do the minimum required. Or simply they CBA
Well if it's the former they should be tagging along with us learning on the job, that's how we all got to where we are, and if it's the latter they ought to say so and leave us to give the public what they want to see.

I may be wrong here and this isn't a dig but is it not incumbent upon a museum to provide the most immersive possible experience for the public? You don't get much more immersive than being covered in warm, kerosene-flavoured loch/lake water.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

'Sometimes you gotta be an S.O.B if you wanna make a dream reality' Mark Knopfler
User avatar
Filtertron
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:15 pm
Location: East of Lake Dumbleyung.
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Filtertron »

Renegadenemo wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:11 pm
Sure, by reading here I can only listen to one side of the story and by meeting you guys on Bute I might also be a little biased towards the BBP as well, but really trying to be neutral I have very little understanding for what's going on the other side. And whenever people post here from that side, I can't follow their way of thinking - whereas all the things you guys say sounds very reasonable, knowledged and right to me.
What you see is what you get with us, Joerg. And it really is just as it appears and it is beyond the understanding of one and all. We strove to run the perfect project, worked at boardroom level with major sponsors, took a running boat back onto the water after 51 years and 15 years of dedicated rebuild to have our efforts widely acclaimed. We operated professionally and safely and our hosts on Bute benefited hugely whilst having no complaints and we're still here, the same team with the same aspirations and yet a handful of individuals with plenty to gain are sitting in silence, forcing delays on proceedings and in so-doing are depriving the public and enthusiasts alike of what they'd like to see. It's beyond mind-boggling.

As for mediators - yes we have them and I've been involved in a couple of mediations. It's dull, tedious and very expensive by the time you take your lawyers and counsel and set their meters ticking. There are easier ways.
I've never had any experience with mediation. Can you give us a rundown on what is involved in the process?
"What are you doing up that tree?"
"We're mountaineering on a rather tight budget."
User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 5104
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Renegadenemo »

I've never had any experience with mediation. Can you give us a rundown on what is involved in the process?
It's an exquisite form of torture designed by the legal system with but one aim - to stop one or both protagonists behaving like idiots for long enough to get agreement between them.

What happens is this - you decide someone has wronged you so you have your lawyers write to them saying you have wronged our client and we require you to do X, Y & Z or we'll issue proceedings. At that point the hoped for outcome is that it all gets sorted out and by writing you have engaged in your 'pre-action practice' which covers you off so far as costs are concerned. If it all ends up in court and you win you can ask for the costs of that initial letter and the work that went into preparing it but really it's all designed to have you sort it out without bothering the judge.

But suppose that you go through your pre-action stuff and still get no joy. You can suggest a mediation but if that goes nowhere you push the button and issue proceedings. That then puts everyone in the hot-seat, especially the defendants who have no choice but to defend or be ruled against so what happens then is that mediation suddenly becomes something you really want to do because if you don't and you end up in front of a judge it's not only viewed very dimly but you're not going to do well on costs later on either if you refused to mediate.

So all of a sudden you can't mediate fast enough and it's not nice.

Firstly the costs are payable up front so you wave goodbye to a big lump of money before you even put bat to ball. You have to pay the solicitors to prep any documents you may need and that can run away with itself. Then you have the solicitor's costs for the day, counsel's fees, mediator's fees, the venue and what ever other disbursements they dream up for you, travel, etc. You'll spend £10k with no effort at all and more likely double that but it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than court proceedings!
It's one of those things that you can try to do on the cheap but you're only swindling yourself. Think of it as signing up for bargain surgery. This is the chap I've always had come and bat for me. https://www.4newsquare.com/barristers/hugh-jory-qc/

And then comes the actual mediation itself, which is essentially sitting around being hot and uncomfortable for hours on end in a small room having your barrister or QC poke and prod to see how far you're likely to bend while the mediator pops in every hour or so to tell you what the other side wants at which juncture you explain what you're prepared to give and off he/she goes again for another round. Eventually someone gets so fed up that something is thrashed out and the legal eagles swiftly draft an agreement that you sign there and then so you can't wriggle out of it next morning. It's therefore vital that you send people who are able to make all the crucial decisions then sign the contract on the day or it's pointless and you don't get your money back.

It's a tragic way to sort things out but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get on with it.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

'Sometimes you gotta be an S.O.B if you wanna make a dream reality' Mark Knopfler
User avatar
Filtertron
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:15 pm
Location: East of Lake Dumbleyung.
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Filtertron »

Thanks for that, Bill. Sounds like something best avoided!
"What are you doing up that tree?"
"We're mountaineering on a rather tight budget."
User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 5104
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Renegadenemo »

Thanks for that, Bill. Sounds like something best avoided!
Indeed - think of it as surgery. You don't want it and it's daunting but you hope that once the incisions have been made and closed up your quality of life will improve.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

'Sometimes you gotta be an S.O.B if you wanna make a dream reality' Mark Knopfler
JfromJAGs
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:16 pm

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by JfromJAGs »

This is not what I had in mind converning 'mediation'. I had though about a respected person who would so this on a voluntary basis, just in the interest of the importance of K7 to the motor sport history.

Someone who can figure out, by talking to both sides, what each side has in mind and what's blocking any progress. Then he/she can come up with a compromise which both side can agree to. Maybe there is no such compromise - then it all needs to go to court.

BR,
Joerg
User avatar
Filtertron
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:15 pm
Location: East of Lake Dumbleyung.
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Filtertron »

JfromJAGs wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:31 pm This is not what I had in mind converning 'mediation'. I had though about a respected person who would so this on a voluntary basis, just in the interest of the importance of K7 to the motor sport history.

Someone who can figure out, by talking to both sides, what each side has in mind and what's blocking any progress. Then he/she can come up with a compromise which both side can agree to. Maybe there is no such compromise - then it all needs to go to court.

BR,
Joerg
My understanding of the situation is that has been tried already. That mediator was supposed to be Gina Campbell. After her words about how K7 was "Too young to sit in a crusty old museum", and her approval of the BBP's work on Bute; there was some hope that the situation would be sorted to everyone's satisfaction wih her help. Unfortunately, she took sides instead of remaining impartial. In my opinion, her actions since have only served to widen the gap between the Ruskin and the BBP further.
"What are you doing up that tree?"
"We're mountaineering on a rather tight budget."
User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 5104
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Renegadenemo »

This is not what I had in mind concerning 'mediation'. I had though about a respected person who would so this on a voluntary basis, just in the interest of the importance of K7 to the motor sport history.

Someone who can figure out, by talking to both sides, what each side has in mind and what's blocking any progress. Then he/she can come up with a compromise which both side can agree to. Maybe there is no such compromise - then it all needs to go to court.
Several people have offered to mediate and we're absolutely fine with that but it's yet to happen and, if we're honest, not really needed.

Joerg, you guys know from experience that the BBP crew is perfectly approachable. Come and have a look around, have a natter with everyone, ask your questions, come for a beer later - you've been there. And it doesn't stop there.

It's a matter of record that we have some pretty impressive sponsors and you don't even get the time of day from those global organisations unless you know what you're talking about and can negotiate and communicate effectively and then deliver safely on what you promised. To get the ear of some we had to make a good case that we wouldn't blow ourselves up, be it with gas turbines or high-pressure air systems, then demonstrate not only that we meant it but also that were sufficiently professional to actually not do it.

I've largely dealt with that side but then all of our team are first-class communicators. For example we have Sir Malcolm, our head of operations and the very definition of diplomacy and patience and also quite happy dealing with local authority bureaucracy and being part of a committee. Rich and Sal are similarly able in their field as safety divers and you'll never meet a calmer and more charming man than our John, again a top professional in his field. The list goes on and everyone had to do their bit when we made the request to operate on Bute, which was a huge ask, but again everyone liaised with who they had to in order to get the job done. I worked with the Mountstuart Trust, Malcolm worked with local councils, the hospital and the Scottish Environment Agency to name but a few, our divers and safety boat crews worked with the fishery on Loch Fad to make sure we didn't bring invasive species or cause too much disruption in the days ahead of the crew training and we all worked with the BBC and Sky News. Every member of the team was not only an ambassador for the project at all times in a town where we were strangers but each also had a role negotiating and discussing something and all did so impeccably but even then, having got everything in place, or so we thought, we then discovered a problem with our fuel. Out went calls to aerospace to work out whether we could use what we had - we couldn't - so Paraffin Pete immediately hit his phone to find a new supply on the mainland, arranged its purchase and transportation on the ferry and delivery to the island and then kept it coming, a challenge he wasn't expecting yet rose to like a trooper.

Then, when we got back and the July outing on Coniston was announced one of the first things we did was all pile into our cars and go to LDNPA headquarters to have a meeting with the big cheese. It was a time when there was much misunderstanding in the air and a few tensions but we went, eight of us if memory serves, discussed many things and came away better informed and with relations in good order for both parties.

The point being - let's have a mediator if anyone thinks it's going to be of benefit and we'll happily meet and put the kettle on and discuss whatever needs discussing for as long as he or she wants but it isn't really necessary. All concerned sitting down in the workshop for a brew would surely be way more effective and we might even clean the cups and buy special biscuits for such an auspicious occasion.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

'Sometimes you gotta be an S.O.B if you wanna make a dream reality' Mark Knopfler
JfromJAGs
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:16 pm

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by JfromJAGs »

Filtertron wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:34 am My understanding of the situation is that has been tried already. That mediator was supposed to be Gina Campbell.
Guess that didn't work too well. Which isn't a big surprise as she is way too much involved in the story, so far from beeing neutral.
User avatar
Renegadenemo
Posts: 5104
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:29 pm
Location: N E England
Contact:

Re: Coniston Bye laws/Ruskin

Post by Renegadenemo »

In point of fact the mediator wasn't Gina. It was another individual who asked to remain anonymous. It was a valiant effort but not successful.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

'Sometimes you gotta be an S.O.B if you wanna make a dream reality' Mark Knopfler
Post Reply