Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

quicksilver-wsr
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:56 pm

Ahem ... yer ...

I'm sorry to hear about Daniel. I didn't know him but he put a lot of commitment into his project and now I guess we'll never know.

I could comment further on the other stuff on there, but I'm too diplomatic.

Don't like our Graham's name being taken in vain, though, as I'm hurting pretty bad at the moment and feel a lot worse since last week's news of his death really hit me properly.

In response to a request to me from the Blackpool lot for engine help, Graham Pool - with my permission and encouragement - drove up there a few times and did what he was tasked with. (This was well before K777 went to Coniston and sank, and well before we knew what they were going to shamelessly call the thing.)

I felt that the experience Graham would get, working on a jet-propelled hydroplane, would be a useful addition to his already massive experience in the aero-engine field.

That's the positive part. The negative part is that when that particular project gave way to whatever-it-was-called-next, Graham's name was displayed on their website as a "team-member" - without there having been so much as a by-your-leave to either Graham or me. I rang Graham. "First I've heard of it," was his response.

Swift exit, Graham - although he was never, ever 'in' in the first place.

So that's how they showed their gratitude to Graham for the invaluable assistance he had voluntarily rendered. By publicly putting him in the embarrassing position of supposedly being in two competing WWSR projects at the same time. This with no prior warning that would have given him the opportunity to say, "No thanks."

The nasty smell that little episode left has never quite lifted.

Nigel

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by quicksilver-wsr » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:33 pm

I don't like to drag this out too much on this forum, but it seems my last post on here has prompted a public statement - on the Longbow website, then transmitted elsewhere online - that the contents of my post were malicious and untrue.

Since all this stuff - whether it is on here or elsewhere - is in public view, I feel a response from me is appropriate, as there is always the feeling of "no smoke without fire" if I say nothing.

Here is what the Longbow website says in response to my last BBP forum post:

"It has been brought to our attention that a third party has suggested upon social media, that our dear friend and mentor, the late Mr. D.G. Pool CEng, MIMechE, whom we reported had sadly passed away last month, had indeed not assisted us with our venture.

"We are at a loss as to why such a malicious claim would be made by this individual upon a public forum but trust that the following copy documents show this suggestion to be false."

I looked at the documents they refer to and couldn't make head or tail of them, but they were dated 2013. That's five years ago, which gives a good idea of how long it is since their 'involvement' with their "dear friend and mentor" Graham Pool ended. And it probably ended, if truth be known, some time before that.

Bear in mind that the other project wasn't even called what it is called now, back then. Between K777 and Longbow there was another name, which I can't for the life of me remember as it's not sufficiently important, but the main fellow in question rolls the various names together whenever it suits him and then just as quickly distances them ... you guessed it, whenever it suits him.

Anyway, here are the facts ....

My last post doesn't say Graham did not assist the people concerned with their venture. He did. With my permission and encouragement. It simply states that he ceased to do so once he realised he had been taken advantage of.

The documents produced by the Longbow fellow don't prove a lot. Only two things. One is that Graham was a nice guy who will have given advice and guidance on the topic of engines to anyone who asked for it - but certainly not after the extent of what was going on became apparent to him. The other is that Graham's name was doubtless being bandied about for some time after he had stopped rendering assistance, in a vain effort to imply his continued 'involvement'.

Let me be quite clear and explicit. Graham wanted nothing to do with the people in question once it became clear to both him, and me, that we had been misled as to what the true purpose of their 'venture' was - namely, an attempt on the WWSR.

It stands to reason that we would not help an outfit that was in direct competition with us. It would be effectively negating all the years of hard work that we, and especially Graham, had done. And it is also plainly silly to suggest that a key team-member would fulfil an identical role in two opposing teams.

At the time, I publicly glossed over it - including on here, when Checkie Rob very politely asked the "One man, two teams?" question. I did that mainly to spare the other side's blushes, but also to avoid an unseemly public spat that made Graham feel like a pawn. I soon came to wish I had made plain then and there that what was going on was misleading, at best.

Graham wanted nothing to do with the duplicity. We were frankly duped at the outset into helping these people on the basis that they were going to pay tribute to Donald Campbell when in actual fact they were attempting to plunder some of our best resources in order to set up in direct competition with us. Not just an important team-member, but other things too.

I'll be speaking at Graham's funeral next week. His daughter Linda texted me a couple of days after he died. Part of that text read ...

"I know all about your project. Dad was proud to be a part of the team."

On the other hand - speaking as one who worked with Graham for 11 years, right up until a few weeks before he died - he regretted helping the other lot - as, indeed, I do.

They only knew Graham had died by reading it on our website, then copied content from our Obituary onto their site.

The main lesson I long ago learned from all this? "If you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas."

Nigel

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mtskull
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by mtskull » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:22 am

Mike Bull wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:29 am
Hadn't realised that this was running TWO Viper engines...

https://www.jet-hydroplane.uk/september-2018-update/
It would be interesting to know the rationale behind that "ballsy" design decision.

Installed in an aircraft, twin engines add reliability; if one stops, you can keep on flying.
Installed in a WSR hydroplane, if one stops, you aren't going to get your record anyway, so why double the chances of something going wrong? I can't see why they would accept all the additional complexity, along with a 500lb weight penalty, for an additional 400lbs of thrust compared to, say, an Orpheus, especially as they know where to find one that isn't currently being used....

Am I missing something here?
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Renegadenemo
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by Renegadenemo » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:17 pm

At the very least I'd want two gas generators with a single jetpipe. Imagine the asymmetric thrust if one went out. It would be a better job with a single Viper and a reheat, I reckon. The one we tweaked for the jet car delivered a phenomenal amount of power for its size. Horrid, screechy little engines they are too. Had to learn the fuel system to get the car to deliver its full potential but it didn't half go!
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mtskull
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by mtskull » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:00 am

Having read a little more of the Longbow back story, it would appear that a large part of the rationale behind the twin Viper setup is that Vipers were available and they couldn't find a suitable Orpheus. Lots of RB 199's currently for sale though; oodles of thrust and still 300kg lighter than two Vipers. Mind you, that's easy for me to say, as I'm not the one footing the bill....
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals.

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Renegadenemo
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by Renegadenemo » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:59 pm

Lots of RB 199's currently for sale though; oodles of thrust and still 300kg lighter than two Vipers.
I think getting hold of MOST of a RB199 would be easy enough but I think it would be real challenge to actually get a tune out of it. I know nothing about it but I'd wager it has lots of offboard systems and ancillaries that you'd have a hell of a job getting hold of or tricking the engine into thinking it had one. Where's Stuart for a more knowledgeable opinion?

I doubt very much whether there'd be much technical info available either seeing as it's still very much a supported engine. Even the Viper still has bits and bobs of support for aircraft forces around the world so getting to the bottom of how the BFCU works (barometric fuel control unit) was a task in itself and it's a thing you can hold in your hand that was designed for a drone engine. But it happens to be a R-R part amongst a nest of familiar Lucas gubbins so try finding out about it!

I still think that for value for money, power and weight an afterburning Viper would be the best option. The setup on the car is crude but effective with little, if any, weight penalty. Bit of a downside to the Viper is it has a lot of mag/thorium in it so it needs treating with respect if there's any corrosion product about.
I'm only a plumber from Cannock...

"As to reward, my profession is its own reward;" Sherlock Holmes.

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Richie
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by Richie » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:12 pm

Ah Thorium, that stuff that Bill truly fears above all else !
Clarence come out ov zat tank at vonz !

Malcolm Ops
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by Malcolm Ops » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:51 pm

Renegadenemo wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:59 pm
I still think that for value for money, power and weight an afterburning Viper would be the best option. The setup on the car is crude but effective with little, if any, weight penalty.
Although Craig Arfons spoke of adding an afterburner to his J85 powered jet hydroplane, this form of power enhancement has not been used on water, I have heard comments that the sudden application of power could destabilise a craft. [The 'idea' of two viper jets mounted on a boat has been the outright WSR craft design route of Alan Sabberton from Norfolk since his project started].
Malcolm Ops

Derby, England

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mtskull
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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by mtskull » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:56 pm

Mike Bull wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:05 am
Malcolm Ops wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:51 pm
[The 'idea' of two viper jets mounted on a boat has been the outright WSR craft design route of Alan Sabberton from Norfolk since his project started].
I thought, 'who?' but then realised, I'd seen this before-

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/hoveton-man ... -1-4418313
That's a pretty model but, blimey, I hate to contemplate the effects of a loss of thrust on one engine when they are set so far from the centreline.....

I know that local newspapers aren't especially noted for accurate reporting but how on earth did they work out that 4000lbs of thrust equates to 16000 horsepower? The boat would have to achieve 1500mph for that to be true! Maybe they looked up some reference material for Concorde....
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals.

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Re: Other Speed Record Breakers Are Available!

Post by mtskull » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:01 pm

Whoops, pressed "reply with quote" instead of "edit".
Last edited by mtskull on Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals.

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